India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

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Varma
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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby Varma » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:07 pm

prasen9 wrote:...I could bet my gut is bigger than yours though. So, my gut feeling should be worth more :-)

I always thought of you as an out and out numbers/stats/evidence guy. How could you claim the above without any proof? Very disappointing, Prasen! :p

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby prasen9 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:18 pm

Whaat? I did use numbers. The size of my gut, see :p

I like to argue. Sometimes I take sides sharply to see what the counter-argument is.

If I were to argue for Bhuvi, the case would be that he has gained speed. So, maybe his bowling cannot be hit out of the park like it regularly was done when he did not have pace and tried to bowl in the last overs of an ODI. Now, he is bowling more end overs. Maybe Kohli will have more trust in him than Dhoni. I never mentioned Umesh or Ishant because these guys are useless in ODI death bowling. I am at peace with trying Bhuvi to see if his added speed means that he can be a death bowler. Let us see.

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby prasen9 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:34 pm

Varma, I could not stay out without numbers for long :-) There is a website that calculates the impact index using a formula. Here is their index for this match. Impact of Indian players in last ODI Bumrah's effort was found to have had more impact than Bhuvi's. It does take both economy and wicket-taking into account. I fully expect people here to criticize the formula. I will respect that. I am not pointing out that this "proves" that Bhuvi was worse than Bumrah in this match. [Yes, the dropped catch perhaps hampered Bhuvi.] But, what I am doing is point out that it is not only me but other people think that taking wickets, especially of the top-order is important too.

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby Varma » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:13 am

Prasen...my dig was just on your tall claim of sporting a bigger gut with no proof :D . For the debate on Bhuvi's role, I am perched here at the top, enjoying the views of your and indiansportsfan's points. Healthy debates are always fun to watch/follow!

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby prasen9 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:23 am

Sometimes when people are getting too angry and heated, a bit of humor can help :-) I promise to measure my mid-section and post it if Indiasportsfan agrees to post his size :-) Then, Varma, the referee can declare who is the winner.

Whether I care or not, Bhuvi will play. Best of luck to him and anyone else who puts on the India cap.

I have been wrong many times. Most notably with Rayudu who I thought would not be able to make it. I think I owe PKB and Gautam an apology. They were right. He can play. He has been treated shabbily by Dhoni. So, maybe, wrt Bhuvi I am wrong too. But, that does not matter. In an argument, you just take one side and blast it out vociferously :-)

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby VReddy » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:46 am

I haven't watched this match nor much of the Intl Cricket in India this season. However, when I did watch IPL last season, Bhuvi was indeed called out during the entire season as the go-to man for death bowling.

Didn't spend much time on checking on the stats, but a quote from Warner to highlight this point

Article

Warner said as a captain he has utmost faith in Bhuvneshwar’s abilities and passion for the game.

“I have got utmost faith in him (Bhuvneshwar) and the way he plays his cricket. He is passionate. He loves the game and, I always rely on him towards the end,” the Australian said.

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby PKBasu » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:08 am

Yes, the remarkable thing yesterday was that he bowled four overs at the death (much more taxing than the two overs usually required in T20s), and did them admirably.

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby prasen9 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:25 am

I think because he has added more speed. He used to bowl at 125kph and now he regularly goes around 135kph. At the former, you can be tanked around in Indian grounds with the ODI fielding restrictions. At the latter, he can bowl the death overs. He was always a smart bowler. Maybe the speed gain and the faith of his new captain will make him a bowler who can bowl regularly at the end. I will be happy if he can do that consistently. We badly need a death bowler. And, no, calling back Nehra is not a long-term solution.

It's too bad CI Statsguru does not let us slice the data by the death overs so that I could check how good or bad he is in comparison to the other idiots. There was an older article which showed that Irfan Pathan was among our best death bowlers and Zaheer Khan the worst among those that were regulars in their decade.

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby prasen9 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:37 am

I found this article: Analysis of BK's bowling It has a pretty decent quote about the end overs.

Death over bowling: Probably the most significantly improved aspect in his bowling in recent years has to be his bowling at the death in limited-overs cricket. Under Dhoni, the specialist new ball bowler hurriedly finished off his quota of overs in the first half of an innings, a norm in the nascent stages of his career.However, in the last couple of seasons, his IPL stint with Sunrisers Hyderabad has seen a marked improvement in this aspect of his bowling.As SRH’s premier bowler, Bhuvi has had to bowl at the death and it seems like he has taken the opportunity to work on his shortcomings.Combined with increased air speed, Bhuvi now has added a deadly yorker in his armoury and picked a lot of death over wickets with it.He has not had many opportunities in Indian colours since his return from injury but has started bowling more in the later stages of the innings in ODIs and T20Is.


So maybe this is a changed guy. Time to pick up some wickets dude :-) and winning some matches.

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby Atithee » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:46 am

Why doesn't Jadeja ever bowl the death overs? Is there a rule against spinners bowling the death overs? Has Jadeja flopped in that role whenever he was tried?

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby PKBasu » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:18 am

interesting question, Atithee, and a somewhat radical one. Spinners are rarely tried in the death overs. Presumably this is because they are susceptible to being thrashed for big runs: it is generally seen as easier to hammer spinners for six. Jadeja thus bowls mainly in the middle or late-middle overs and is the most restrictive when he does, while also bringing in the bonus of regular wickets.

If he is restrictive and wicket-taking in the middle overs, he should in theory be able to do the same in the death overs. It'll be interesting to see if he is ever tried; it'll perhaps happen only after all the pacers fail. So far, Shami and Bhuvi are good options, and Pandya occasionally. But clearly we are sill struggling to have a stable pair of death over bowlers.

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby PKBasu » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:20 am

looking forward to being at the Eden Gardens tomorrow for the final ODI.

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby prasen9 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:13 pm

PKBasu wrote:So far, Shami and Bhuvi are good options, and Pandya occasionally. But clearly we are sill struggling to have a stable pair of death over bowlers.
On the field, if we look at a bigger sample than the last match or two, Bumrah has been our best option in the ODIs for the late overs. Maybe on these small grounds, spinners cannot bowl in the last 10 overs. Maybe in the MCG, we can see a spinner bowling at the end.

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby prasen9 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:29 pm

I know people don't like stats here. So, I will simply remind people that unfortunately, Bhuvi did not get any wickets, did not finish his quota, and gave away lots of runs/over. Hopefully, he will improve or be dropped.

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Re: India-England ODI Series, Jan 2017

Postby ankit1407 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:40 pm

Pandya has a brain fade every 30 seconds


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