Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby Prashant » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:35 pm

So Shardul Thakur is drafted in to the test squad as cover, but doesn't make the ODI squad, while Bumrah does. Confusing. Are they considering these two guys specialists in one form of the game already? Or is this some kind of quota thing resurfacing?

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby prasen9 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:44 pm

Bumrah is indeed a short-version specialist. As is Dhawal Kulkarni for now.

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby indiansportsfan » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:38 pm

Bhuvi's injury has really spread our ODI bowling stocks too thin. Other than Bumrah, Dhawal and Hardik, I don't see any other bowler in the reserve who is good enough for this level. Unadkat is meh, Sran is injured, Rajpoot has been disappointing of late, Sandeep Sharma is likely a poor man's version of Dhawal. Umesh and Aaron are too profligate for ODI/T20 cricket. Nathu is too raw, not sure how much control he has. We could go back to Mithun/Dinda, but nothing really exciting. Other than that I don't see anyone at all in domestic cricket.

We really need Bhuvi for ODI/T20s. He has such a frail physique, I think he tried to bowl faster than his body could handle. We should not include him in the Test team, so he has a chance to play longer for India in the shorter version.

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby prasen9 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:06 pm

If you are considering bowlers who have played over 40 ODIs, the only good pace bowler in ODIs has been Shami.

Performance-wise, Bumrah, Ishant, Mohit, Umesh have all been better bowlers than Bhuvi because their strike rates and averages are much better. Bhuvi is a containing bowler incapable of taking wickets except in the first few overs. Or at least has been. He cannot bowl at the end (or could not). So, he is a very limited bowler to carry in the team. It is upto him to show us that he can do well in limited overs cricket and actually bowl in the end overs. All the other bowlers numbers look bad because they have regularly bowled several overs in the death where the norm is to go at 9-10 runs/over these days. So, it is not a big loss.

I would rather give chances to Bumrah, Dhawal, Binny for the #7/3rd seamer spot, and Unadkat. I think Unadkat is marginally better than Sran.

Bhuvi is useless for the shorter version. I would rather not give him an ODI spot but play him in tests. If we are sure that his body cannot take it, he has to take the longer route and show us he can actually bowl in List-As successfully especially in the slog overs before we can take him. Or else, beef up his batting so that he can be the 3rd seamer and #7.

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby indiansportsfan » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:53 pm

Shami of course picks up wickets in ODIs, but he is also expensive, so I consider his utility limited for the shorter versions. I would rather preserve him for Tests, and only play him in matches of any real importance, like World Cups and Champions Trophy. Mohit is someone I had overlooked, he is not that great, but still could be an OKish backup. Umesh and Ishant are not by any stretch better than Bhuvi. Umesh should not be near any ODI/T20 team and Dhoni rightly does not want any part of him. Ishant is somewhat better than Umesh but still his utility is very limited for ODIs. I think you are looking at a very narrow criteria of bowling average. In ODIs, economy is atleast as important, and there Bhuvi is better than all of these that you mention.

Actually Bhuvi has somewhat underachieved in terms of wickets at international level. If you look at his List A performance, it is a magnitude times better. I imagine Dhoni is party responsible, he has probably told him to keep things tight at the beginning; because in the First Class/List A level, Bhuvi is a very attacking bowler and gets tons of wickets. On the other hand, he seems to be doing well in Tests under Kohli, so I imagine Kohli has given him more freedom to attack.

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby prasen9 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:18 pm

Right. We differ fundamentally in how we look at ODIs. The most important thing for bowlers is to take wickets. If you cannot take wickets, you will never be able to win by containing. Batsmen will make 10 runs/over at the end if they have wickets especially today and they will win. If you are just looking at economy, that is rather useless. I will have to look at some more sophisticated statistical analyses to find references, but, from what I have seen, the poor man's metric today is averages. That is, if you have to choose one metric, then averages are the best metric to use, runs/over is not.

Also, even if we use runs/over, we cannot compare Bhuvi with the rest. The rest regularly bowl a lot of overs in the last 10-15 overs whereas Bhuvi does not. It would be interesting to see what Bhuvi's runs/over is in the last 10 overs versus the others. From anecdotal evidence, he seems to be rather useless at the end. He gets wickets in his 1st or 2nd overs and is acceptable in the 1st 15 overs and after that he is rather useless. If you want to choose someone like that, he has to be the #7 bat. His batting is too weak now for that.

At the end of the day, we will never converge because we are using completely different metrics. Peace!

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby prasen9 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:48 pm

Apologies to Raina, but, it is very good news that he is sick. I never wish bad on anyone else. But, this may be a good chance to see if Manish and Kedar Jadhav can bat low down in the order. I do not want them to be treated by ex-India players such as SS Tiwary and Ambati Rayudu who performed well enough in the chances they were given but were dumped without a proper run.

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby PKBasu » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:53 am

Great to see our second-string attack reduce NZ to 55/5 after 15 overs. Umesh Yadav has bowled superbly, and Pandya has turned in a superb ODI debut despite going for 3 boundaries off edges in his first two overs (in which he conceded 20 runs but picked up a wicket).

In the 19th over, Kedar Jadhav (with no List A wickets to his name previously, just 1 first class wicket and 4 T20 wickets) gets 2 wickets off successive balls to leave NZ reeling on 65/7. Abject!!

Jadhav drops an easy catch at mid-on off Umesh Yadav (who pulled off one brilliant catch there off Pandya, and a second decent one there too).

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby PKBasu » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:23 pm

Manish Pandey falls for 17 to a half tracker from Sodhi. Big opportunity missed to consolidate his place. He was averaging 92.5 at a strike rate of over 100 in ODIs before this match...

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby PKBasu » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:25 pm

Manish Pandey falls for 17 to a half tracker from Sodhi. Big opportunity missed to consolidate his place. He was averaging 92.5 at a strike rate of over 100 in ODIs before this match...
But India are comfortably placed at 100/3 chasing 191 with 30 more overs left.

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby PKBasu » Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:10 pm

Another masterclass (85*) from Virat Kohli finishes the job for India. The other batsmen (apart from Rahane) didn't cash in on a great opportunity.

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby prasen9 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:17 pm

I don't think Rahane did either. He did show that he can bat fast for a cameo. But, he should have done what Virat did. Put a premium on his wicket.

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby prasen9 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:08 pm

I hope they rest Kohli and play Mandip in the next game. Similarly, rest Umesh and play Dhawal. But, of course, Dhoni will not rest any senior if they are in the 14 and the series is alive.

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby PKBasu » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:00 pm

Why is Dhoni still playing ODIs? He will need to start justifying his place better.

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Re: Sundry ODI/T20I series, June-Dec 2016

Postby prasen9 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:07 pm

The loss of Kohli and Rohit early was the key. Nobody else could be the backbone of the chase, maybe, because of inexperience. Pandey's runout was the other turning point. Kohli, Rohit, and Pandey have played well in the recent past. So, they are bound to have off-days. The problem is that Rahane is not as consistent enough to take charge on such days. And, Dhoni could not do it either.


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